[00:00:00.060] – Mark Donnigan

The world of B2B selling is breaking down into those who are adapting, have adapted to the new reality, which is, that they are no longer in control. The buyer’s in control.

[00:00:21.200] – Jingle

You’re listening to the B2B Revenue Executive Experience, a podcast dedicated to helping executives train their sales and marketing teams to optimize growth. Whether you’re looking for techniques and strategies or tools and resources, you’ve come to the right place. Let’s accelerate your growth in 3,2,1…

[00:00:40.970] – Chad Sanderson

Welcome, everyone, to the B2B Revenue Executive Experience. I’m your host, Chad Sanderson. Today we’re talking about how marketing needs to address today’s B2B buyer’s journey, the role of sales and crafting a marketing strategy, and how in the world you get both aligned around the same metrics. To help us, we have with us Mark Donnegan, a 20-year marketing and sales veteran, who’s worked for companies backed by some of the largest VC firms in the valley. Mark, thank you for taking time and welcome to the show.

[00:01:07.190] – Mark Donnigan

Well, thank you, Chad. It’s great to be here and talking to you and your wonderful audience. You’ve got a great show.

[00:01:13.310] – Chad Sanderson

Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. We put a lot of effort into it. Some are better than others. Just about everything in life.

[00:01:19.910] – Mark Donnigan

That’s how life is!

[00:01:21.950] – Chad Sanderson

So, I have good days and I have good hair days and bad hair days.

[00:01:25.190] – Mark Donnigan

We all do.

[00:01:26.660] – Chad Sanderson

Well, for those you know, haven’t seen me.I am as bald as a baby, so.

[00:01:31.590] – Mark Donnigan

– I have short hair too. 

[00:01:35.050] – Chad Sanderson

So before we jump in, we always like to ask just a regular questions that people get to know you a little bit better and based on the air that we’ve had them changing it up a little bit. So, as you look back on the year, you know, and you think about the opportunities that maybe more time at home has had, has there been something that you are passionate about that maybe our listeners might be surprised to learn or that you had an opportunity to explore more as a result of the way some of our calendars kind of rearranged themselves?

[00:02:02.180] – Mark Donnigan

Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, that’s it. Boy, that’s a great question. Where to start, you know, but here’s one takeaway. I was just thinking about this the other day as I was reflecting on how my time has shifted. And, you know, it used to be that, it used to be, boy, it’s so strange to think that way. You know, we would go to shows, we would go to conferences, we would get out in the field. And that’s where a lot of times, most of the time, especially for your audience that’s been selling, right? So, you know, I’m out there to meet with prospects, meet with customers. But there also was a learning opportunity there. And there was, you know, talking to peers and other colleagues throughout the industry. And for those of us, you know, who’ve been around a few years, you know, we we we develop relationships. So, there was a lot of networking, a lot of learning. Right? And you could think this is what I was reflecting on. You could think, like, wow, I’ve lost that whole opportunity to get out there and kind of stand in the coffee line and swap stories with somebody where I might pick up an interesting, you know, piece of information or, you know, sitting in the hotel bar sharing a drink at the end of the night and, you know, and that kind of thing. But, here is my insight. Was that because you can’t do that, it’s forced or it’s opened up whole new ways to connect. And so things like podcast consumption, frankly, on one hand, you know, well, we’re not commuting, so, you know, and we’re busy. We’re always in front of our machines, you know, in front of our computers where, you know, we’re on Zoom calls or doing that. So how do we have time for it? But I’ve seen just an incredible uptake, if you look on LinkedIn of just, you know, podcast of video, boy, what do you call it? You know, train of just content that is in some cases, giving really, really deep insights and interesting views that maybe I could have gotten out before at a conference. But guess what? I wasn’t sitting in that session.

[00:04:07.970] – Chad Sanderson

Right.

[00:04:08.360] – Mark Donnigan

And even though you know, and here’s the ironic thing. All that stuff was always being produced there. Most of those events, they were publishing it on YouTube or on their website.But how many times do we go look at it? You know, like never because. Because we’re busy. Right? You know, and you just blew three days at this event. And, you know, by the time you get back to the office, you’re busy catching up. But now, like  I’ve got an extra 45 minutes in the calendar. And, you know, rather than sort of sit there and zone out for 20 minutes until my next call starts, you know, I find a podcast episode, I find something. And so now we’re going to connect to how that impacts not only your professional development -that’s kind of a no brainer – but how it connects to being a better revenue leader. And that’s what I’m actually super excited about is, you know, whether you’re on the marketing side or you’re, you know, directly in the revenue side of the business. I think there’s tremendous opportunities now in some ways, maybe better than before.

[00:05:08.600] – Chad Sanderson

Yeah, I agree. Absolutely. And so let’s talk about, kind of go back a little bit and find out where your passion for sales and marketing came from. I mean, some people go to you. And say, yeah, I’m going to I’m going to become a marketing professional, but I don’t know a lot these days that started, you know, when we were at the holidays playing with our G.I. Joe or Barbie is going, you know, I can’t wait to grow up and get into sales.

[00:05:29.310] – Mark Donnigan

So, yeah, that’s right, yeah.

[00:05:31.130] – Chad Sanderson

So I’m kind of curious, where did your passion for these professions come from?

[00:05:35.130] – Mark Donnigan

Well, I started programming at my school’s Apple 2. So that shows you how old I am – I’m dating myself. Seriously, when I was 12, I taught myself Basic and started, you know, and so my dad, you know, retired at Hewlett-Packard. And so I came up through this, you know, you’d assume, well, I’m going to be an engineer. So sure enough, you know, I went into computer science program and I can remember it as if it was yesterday. It was my sophomore year and microprocessors class and right before the final, literally the last class before the final. And the professors telling us exactly what’s going to be on the final. I mean, this is like really critical. Like here’s what’s on the final. Here’s what you need to study. And I realized that I had sat down and then, you know, I don’t even remember if we had a bell, but, you know, university. But anyway, I sat down and then the professor said his last words and the rest of the 55 minutes or whatever, the class, I didn’t hear a word he said.

[00:06:37.080] – Chad Sanderson

Why? Why was that?

[00:06:38.910] – Mark Donnigan

It was because I was daydreaming about my band and about playing music. And I went, OK, so I went to music school. So I dropped out, went to music school, went to a pretty good school and, you know, everything’s good. And then I figured out, oh, I’m going to be a poor, starving musician. And seriously, I mean, this really is the arc of how I got into it. So I thought, you know, well, OK, what you know, how can I make money off salespeople? You know, they they make money. And I like talking. And I had worked my way largely through college, selling and managing a car audio store. So, that kind of gave me the music thing and, you know, and I was making a little money. I mean, especially for a part time job, you know, in college, like, I was actually doing really good. So, you know, so its more just like, how can I make money, you know, and do something I enjoy doing? And then what ended up happening was, you know, as my arc moved from, you know, from being an individual contributor, then of course, naturally I really wanted to become a student of sales. So I dove into Ziggler. I mean, I was devouring at that time, you know, any of the sales development books I could get my hands on. And then that led me into, you know, sales leadership. And and then as my career progressed, I got, you know, more involved in the business development side. But the interesting thing is, through the whole you know, through this whole arc of my sales career, even my own as an individual contributor, I was always sort of naturally grabbing marketing as a way to help, you know, or to boost my individual efforts. At one time, I created the little newsletter, you know, I was sending out to customers. I mean, and this is let me tell you, this is early, early, early. Like, remember when I was 12, I was on an Apple 2, you know, Basic. So an idea of like, you know, how old I am. So this is not you know, this is not like ten years ago where it’s like, yeah, there’s all these cool online tools. I mean, this is you know, this is mailing out newsletters. And, you know, I didn’t at the time, really connect to the fact that I had this really pretty well developed sense of, you know, I guess the left brain and logic and strategy, but then also the right brain creative. And I can’t say I connected with hey, you know, this mix is perfect for marketing, but it’s just that as I developed, I just you know, eventually you grow in bigger roles. Next thing you know, you basically have a marketing team reporting to you because you’re the head of marketing and sales. And then, you know, it’s kind of that that that progression. Right? And then finally, you know, I just said, you know, strategy and marketing and speaking to the market in the acceleration ability, marketing as an accelerant. It was just super exciting for me, you know, to be able to do something that could that could impact hundreds of sellers and the entire success of a company rather than just myself or a small team that I was leading, you know, in revenue, which is often especially in big companies, you know, that’s kind of how it is. You know, it’s like, hey, my group’s rockin’. You know, what’s happening with the other teams? You know, or my group’s not, you know, so, yeah.

[00:10:05.820] – Chad Sanderson

And it’s very much a macro to micro kind of difference in my experience, because, I mean, I started in marketing and and thought I always thought, you know, I don’t know why these sellers aren’t aren’t picking this stuff up? Then decided, hey, you know what, I’m going to go jump and be an individual contributor and then kind of come up the ranks the other way. So being able to see the macro and the micro in the way that it impacts not only the buyer’s journey, but the revenue cycle for an organization is pretty compelling, I think.

[00:10:33.240] – Mark Donnigan

It really is, yeah.

[00:10:34.320] – Chad Sanderson

One of the things that I saw when I was doing it, and still see today and the organizations that we work with, is this almost innate built-in friction between sales and marketing teams. It’s almost as if they don’t I mean, well, they don’t understand each other or understand what they’re doing. But I’m wondering what you’re seeing is kind of that current state at an aggregate level of, you know, the relationship between sales and marketing and maybe even how companies can increase the alignment between the two.

[00:11:03.710] – Mark Donnigan

Yeah. So I’ve got some good news. I think that in general, now part of the problem is, is that the answer to this question depends a lot on what the business model is. You know, a SaaS business model is going to look very different than you know, a software license. It’s going to look different than more of a more of a product, you know, like a physical product or, you know, a hybrid physical digital product or solution. So, it’s going to vary a little bit. But the good news that I have is, is that I really see the walls getting torn down pretty significantly. And I think the organizations where there still really is friction now, you know that, yeah, there’s always going to be a little bit of, you know, butting heads. But I mean, where really one side is suspicious of the other. Boy, I would say one or two things. Either those two leaders, the marketing leader and the sales leader, their days are numbered. And those numbered days are short. I mean, they’re going to be replaced. That’s either the first observation. The second observation is that industry or that sector is numbered. So either way, you know, those those those people better figure out how to work together or else, you know, they’re they’re going to be looking to work somewhere else, because that is just not the way that our customers, the way that their buyers want to relate, need to relate. And they’re just going to skip right over them and they’re just not going to be successful. So, that’s the good news. So, the good news is, I think it’s breaking down now, meaning that the friction or the silos. Now, another observation I have that I think is really interesting, and this is where I’m finding, I used to sort of you know, there was a period of time where being a seller who turned into a marketer and not having, you know, quote unquote, I use the air quotes. You know, M.B.A. from, you know, either marketing degree or an MBA from a specific school. I sort of would fall through the cracks because it was kind of like, wow, this guy has a lot of great experience. But is he a sales person or is he in marketing? You know, it’s kind of like where does he fit? Now, I’m finding that boy, the opportunities are huge. Because in the marketing side of the business, if you can’t impact and speak to revenue – and it’s beyond talking about how we’re connecting marketing motion to revenue – what I’m talking about is go to market. Its strategy. It’s how, you know, what we’re going to build for the business is going to contribute to the objectives of the company and and for a marketing leader, if they can do that, wow, it’s incredible. Now, likewise, it sure is a lot easier to interface and to build a relationship with the revenue leader. If you have empathy for them, if you understand their sales cycle, if you’re already ahead of them and they don’t even have to ask, you know, for certain types of supporting campaigns or, you know, certain types of materials, because you already know that’s what their sellers need, you know. And so I think and right there, if you know, look, I mean, it’s hard to be angry at the marketing guy, the marketing gal, if they’re producing ahead of what your sellers need, you know. And so right there, you end up breaking down the silos. And I’m seeing more and more and more people and I’m hearing, you know, of more marketing leaders who have come up from sales. So, you know, I don’t feel any longer like I’m sort of a fish out of water a little bit. You know, it’s it’s becoming a lot more common. And I think that is helping to contribute to tear down the wall.

[00:15:03.960] – Chad Sanderson

Well, I think the rallying cry of, you know, we saw this from kind of a design thinking standpoint is focusing on that buyer’s journey, or some people call them customer journeys. From a sales standpoint, it’s definitely a buying journey. That gives them something to rally around, which I think I’ve seen maybe some organizations be more effective at communicating across function with that as the focal point. But I’ve also found it very difficult when organizations don’t have those. I still kind of think you and I are unicorns, although you’re right, some of the salespeople are coming up, you know, in the marketing. But I’ve still seen them struggle to really understand what salespeople do and salespeople to struggle with what the marketing people do. So, in those organizations where you don’t have that kind of organic, make sure people coming up through the ranks, are there ways that you’ve seen organizations successfully break down themselves or at least increase the effectiveness of the conversation across the aisle, so to speak?

[00:16:04.830] – Mark Donnigan

Yeah, so, you know, it’s it’s really easy to always and again, this is kind of a life lesson, right? It’s not always easy to look at the other person or the other side and say they, you know, kind of point the finger. I just don’t like to do that. I just kind of have a general approach to life that starts with, you know, what can I do different? What should I be doing different in this situation? What can I do to contribute to, you know, to change, you know, whatever it is? And I’m talking now just generally not even, you know, marketing or sales or business, but applying this to marketing. One of my biggest pieces of advice for an emerging marketing leader or individual contributor is know the industry that you’re in, know the ecosystem, know it cold, and then understand how the sales process works. And I just I bring it back to, it sounds simplistic. I know that this requires, you know, people to kind of step outside of even what they’re kind of measured on or what their, quote unquote, day to day job is. But whether it’s a marketing team, a three are marketing team of 30, if more than half of those marketers just spend just an hour a week, you know, on as I as we started, you know, on on jumping on a webinar, on attending a virtual event about the industry. On something. You just can’t help but carry that into your whatever marketing function or role your you know, that that you fill – speaking of like an individual contributor. And then if you just, you know, go to the head of again, depending how big the organization is, you know, this might be really easy to do. It might be harder to do. But find someone in sales and just say, hey, you know, could I just please invite me in? You know, I’m not going to bother. I’ll be a fly on the wall. You don’t even need to tell them, you know that I’m on the call, but I it’s really important to me to hear directly from our customers mouths, you know, what are they asking? What are they you know, how are they responding to our presentation? And just what those activities again, they sound so simple. But I have seen because I apply it not only myself, but in my teams and I very often hire not just for domain experience, but I hire for someone who has aptitude. That they can learn and that they want to learn. Now, it’s amazing to me how there’s still marketers out there kind of feeling like, what do you mean, I’m a marketer? Like I you know, like I drive, I drive creative. I’m a content marketer. Like, I just write words. Well, you above all, people, you know, really need to understand ecosystem, you know, what’s the language they use? How do they how do they talk? How, you know, what are the what are the hot trends that we need to make sure that we’re talking about so that we’re going to catch their ear because the world is just so noisy, you know?

[00:19:13.170] – Chad Sanderson

Yeah, absolutely. Well, there’s I think in order to create effective content, you have to understand the audience.

[00:19:20.625] – Mark Donnigan

100%.

[00:19:20.760] – Chad Sanderson

And I don’t think there’s any better way than listening to a sales call when those individuals are not focused on trying to tell you what they’re saying, but actually saying things. If you’re really good at the content creation, you’ll be able to identify the themes or the words, the phrases, or even in some cases the stats, that are really going to get those people’s attention and help the sales individuals that are, you know, campaigning to the decision makers to try and get a meeting or if they’re prospecting or or even if they’re in the sales process, you know, things their perspective of the company and or the solutions are going to change. Yeah, I think hearing that firsthand, I don’t think there’s any replacement for that. I think the bigger challenge that I’m really curious to see how you would recommend companies address this, is how do you get a salesperson to understand the function or the art of marketing communication? Because there’s both, I think, are a blend of science and art. But I think it’s easier to explain to a marketer, just listen to the customer. The customer will give you all the answers to prosper. How do you do it? How do you do it in reverse?

[00:20:20.740] – Mark Donnigan

Yeah, exactly. Especially for a transactional, really driven, you know, a sales professional, you know. So, yeah. So,  I think that the world the world of of B2B selling is breaking down into those who are adapting, have adapted to the new reality, which is that they are no longer in control. The buyer’s in control. And for those people, you know, I think naturally, once you have acquiesced to that understanding and you’ve said, you know, they don’t need me, you know, there’s a lot of choice in the market. There’s a million different ways for them to learn about the choice. And again, depending on your business model, you know, they can even go all the way to buying without ever even maybe talking to me, you know, as a salesperson. And so, if you as a seller have acquiesced to that understanding, then you naturally are going to say, well, then I either better go find another line of work or I better learn how to adapt. And the way you adapt is you figure out, well, how do I capture their attention? Well, you know, everyone responds to story. Everyone responds. At the end of the day, everything we buy, whether it’s, you know, for me personally, you know, in my house or whether it’s for my business, it starts with a need. It starts with, you know, there’s a reason. Right? So, sellers who who have already come around to this line of thinking then are now getting drawn into the world of marketing because they’re saying, wow, you know what marketing is producing for me? And the messages and, you know, the video content, all that is super valuable. And now my job as a seller is to find creative ways to get that in front of my prospects, get that in front of the buying committee. You know, get that in front of the people who either I’m working with or I want to be working with. And they’re, guess what? You know, no secret, they’re probably doing pretty well, these sellers. Right? So, yeah, you know, you know, certain industries, COVID has really decimated. Others are doing well. So, you know, unfortunately, if you’re a great seller in your industry has been decimated, well, it might be tough right now. But that’s not because you as a person, you know, have not adapted. Unfortunately, there are the other sellers who still just want to go back to the battle cards. Just the other day, I was working with a client and a partner of theirs, talked about needing to build battle cards. Now, can you imagine what went through my head?

[00:23:06.290] – Chad Sanderson

Yeah.

[00:23:07.390] – Mark Donnigan

I mean, a dozen things went through my head, fortunately I didn’t repeat any of them on the call. But I mean, it was just like, are you kidding me? Like battle cards? Now look, you know, there’s some people are listening who are going, oh, but wait a second our whole process is built around that. What are you saying? Of course, you need to understand the competition. Of course, you need to understand positioning. Of course, you need, you know, the language in the scripts to be able to counter an objection and be able to deal with an objection. But the old idea of, you know, we have our ah, you know, ten or twelve, you know, there’s these you know, there’s a battle card. And then here’s our playbook and go memorize it and then run with it. Like those days are so far behind us in every industry, I would argue. I don’t think it’s like, well, yeah, I get it, you know, in software and in technology and in SaaS… Yeah, that’s true. Everything you say, Mark, is true. But, you know, I’m over here in this, you know, industrialized, you know, still, you know, 250-year-old industry. And it’s and and it’s you know, it’s different. No, it’s not. No, it’s not. I would argue.

[00:24:21.550] – Chad Sanderson

I’m 100 percent with you. All right. Let’s change direction here a little bit. We ask all of our guests two standard questions towards the end of each and every. And first as simply as a strategist and consultant that makes you a revenue executive yourself and people are obviously trying to get in front of you. And so, I’m always curious to know when somebody doesn’t have a referral, a trusted way in to get to you, what works the best to capture your attention, build credibility and help somebody earn the right to time on your calendar?

[00:24:48.990] – Mark Donnigan

Yeah, you know, so we all see this on LinkedIn, right, and all these cold messages –

[00:24:55.290] – Chad Sanderson

– Don’t get me started!

[00:24:56.850] – Mark Donnigan

Oh, I know. Mind-numbing. Yeah, I think that’s my reference point there. But, you know, it’s simple. They know something about my business or something that I’m clearly interested in. And I don’t mean personally, you know, like, oh, I see we both went to the same school, you know, like it’s still every once in a while I get that and it’s like jeez, you know. But they don’t try and squeeze me into a pre-defined persona, and that right there actually captures my attention. So when there’s some intelligent you know, it could be a question or an insight, sometimes just an insight like, hey, I noticed that you published this blog post, wow I really liked it. By the way, you know, I don’t know if you saw this article, you know, and then I click on I’m like, wow, that that’s really interesting. That’s actually very relevant. And, you know, hey, and I’ll almost always respond back. You know, with more than just, oh, thanks for sharing. You know, like, wow, that’s pretty cool. And then when I’m talking to them or, you know, whether that’s literally on the phone or just, you know, messaging, they listen and they ask questions. But the questions are not your generic. You know, they’re very appropriate. So that right there, it tells me, hey, you know, this person really understands me.

[00:26:09.010] – Chad Sanderson

Absolutely, it’s the show me, you know me. We all know what marketing tech does today and you can spot that a mile away.

[00:26:17.560] – Mark Donnigan

Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure.

[00:26:20.800] – Chad Sanderson

All right. So last question. We call it our acceleration insight. If there was one thing you could tell sales and marketing professionals, one piece of advice that if you gave them and they listened to you believe would help them cross their targets, what would it be and why?

[00:26:33.820] – Mark Donnigan

Yeah, so it would be to focus on really understanding the problem to be solved, but the second part is more important, and who the beneficiary is inside the organization if you solve that problem. Now, let me unpack that, because on the surface, like, oh, of course, focus on really understanding that. OK, I get it. Nothing new there. But the second part is really interesting, because I have found and I have the scars to prove it, where I have entered into, you know, very complex, you know, 15, sometimes 20 people in the buying committee process. And, boy, we just we thought we were you know, we had this thing locked up 18 months in. And of course, we want to close it 12 months earlier. But, you know, we had this thing locked up. Everything’s good, everything’s good. And then all of a sudden it doesn’t close. You go, what happened? Invariably, what happened was, was that we found out that we actually never had the beneficiary who would really benefit from buying or using or, you know, that company procuring our solution at the table. And guess what? That person will pop up at some point, usually pop up at the very end. Right when the deal is about to be signed. And all they have to do is say, yeah, you know, that’s pretty cool. But I’m looking at these other three, so why don’t we hold off? And as the seller, your head’s spinning. Like, how in the world could we have missed this? And so the focus is, is to really understand the problem and then who the beneficiary is. Because the beneficiary is often not someone who’s actually in the buying process or the committee. Sometimes, I mean, the lowest person in the room. That’s why they aren’t in the room, you know, a lot of times. But at the end of the day, they’re the one who inside that company is going to you know, at some point, somebody is going to go to them and say, hey, you know, so we’re looking at this, you know, this this platform, looking at the solution. You know, we’ve gone through, you know, we really like it. Why do you want to take a quick look at it?

[00:28:43.207] – Chad Sanderson

Yeah, yeah.

[00:28:43.720] – Mark Donnigan

And then all it takes for that person is to say, yeah, you know, actually, I’ve got a better idea. You know, I think we could build that internally. You know, hey, we’re working on building that internally and you’re dead. Your whole deal is dead. And like I said, I have the scars to prove that this is what happens. And so, it’s easier said than done, though, to find out who the beneficiary is. Because, you know, it gets back to the old, you know, oh, I’m selling. You know, it’s ultimately the CFO who makes the decision. Well, no, because it could be that subject matter expert who says, hey, you know, I understand that we can save, you know, three quarters of a million dollars by adopting this software. But did you know this? And they go, oh, I didn’t know that. Yeah, well, so maybe we better hold off. Oh, OK. Yeah, absolutely. Oh yeah, yeah. And then, boom, you’re dead. Your deal’s dead.

[00:29:36.130] – Chad Sanderson

Yeah, absolutely. All right. Thank you so much, Mark. If there’s listeners interested in talking more about these topics we touched on today. Or getting in touch with you, where do you want us to send them?

[00:29:45.040] – Mark Donnigan

Yeah, go to my website. So, it’s growthstage.marketing. And I actually have a startup marketing playbook that’s totally ungated, totally free. You just just click on the link. It’s very obvious, right on my homepage there, up in the navigation. And I think I’ve got some helpful info in there, so.

[00:30:10.300] – Chad Sanderson

Excellent. Well, hey Mark, I can’t thank you enough for taking time to be on the show. It’s been an absolute pleasure.

[00:30:14.980] – Mark Donnigan

Chad, it’s really great to talk with you. Thank you.

[00:30:18.530] – Chad Sanderson

All right, everybody. That does it for this episode. You know, the drill – b2brevenueexectutive.com – Share with friends, family, coworkers. Listen in to it at the holidays. Let your kids listen to instead of watching screens. You know the drill. Latest review on iTunes. And until next time, we at Value Selling Associates wish you nothing but the greatest success.

[00:30:38.590] – Jingle

You’ve been listening to the B2B Revenue Executive Experience. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show on iTunes or your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.